Leaving Annistown
Watching this video (David Reis sent it over).
"When should you leave your church" analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ydPViP7B4g
Transcript
Chapter 1: Coming Up
0:00
if you listen to this advice from CS Lewis this will absolutely revolutionize your church experience if you apply this don't we want to be the kind of people
0:08
8 seconds
who are easily edified now here's a question should you attempt to help your church in this scenario have less cheesy
0:16
16 seconds
worship and less boring sermons and I would say probably not when should you leave your local church to go to a
Chapter 2: Introduction
0:24
24 seconds
different local church this is a tough question and I think a really common one right now there's a lot of turmoil in the church lots of people are wrestling with this because they may be discontent
0:32
32 seconds
for some reason at their church but maybe they feel guilty about that they say ah should I just get over it but then maybe sometimes the issues are serious enough you're asking at what
0:40
40 seconds
point would this be a reason to leave so I'm going to try to uh give some pastoral advice on this this is not an exhaustive treatment of it but I hope
0:48
48 seconds
it's helpful what I'll do is first just explain why this is such a tough question and then we'll work through three things seven diagnostic questions
0:55
55 seconds
to ask five imaginary scenarios and then four suggestions on if you are going to leave how to go about that why is this
1:02
1 minute, 2 seconds
such a tough question I think because we can go to one of two extremes um on the one hand a huge danger in our culture is
1:09
1 minute, 9 seconds
consumerism and church hopping I think most of us feel this and are aware of this it's really easy to leave too soon there's lots of situations where the
1:18
1 minute, 18 seconds
answer is just hunker down and stay and serve and don't be a perfectionist and you know don't have a grass as greener on the other side and so uh mentality
1:26
1 minute, 26 seconds
and so forth when in doubt if there's not a clear reason justay St put and and that's we'll try to emphasize that point and try to from CS Lewis especially try
1:34
1 minute, 34 seconds
to challenge anything that is kind of a consumeristic mentality in our hearts but I have to say we got to be careful with that because you can go so far to
1:43
1 minute, 43 seconds
that direction that can be used to beat people up into staying in an unhealthy situation and by the way I'm talking about local churches here right now I'm
1:51
1 minute, 51 seconds
not necessarily really thinking of like leaving a denomination or something like that more a particular local Parish but it is possible to stay too there are
2:00
2 minutes
times to leave so this is tricky here we got to try to figure this out and sometimes even I'll say this sometimes leaving isn't even a big deal there are
2:09
2 minutes, 9 seconds
some unique circumstances where oh you've been going to a church for 10 years it's 30 minutes away the church is totally doing fine there's a newer
2:17
2 minutes, 17 seconds
Church Church Plant 5 minutes from your house you can go and help them and serve them you talk to your pastor he says oh totally you should go and help them no
2:24
2 minutes, 24 seconds
big deal it doesn't need to be some big you know emotional drawn out thing um but usually it is pretty tricky and so
2:33
2 minutes, 33 seconds
there's no hard and fast rules here but let's work through this a little bit first let's talk about some diagnostic questions these are just I'll kind of fly through these but these are just
2:40
2 minutes, 40 seconds
starting to get us thinking so and not even answering these questions but just the kinds of questions we want to put out on the table some of these we might
Chapter 3: Heresy?
2:48
2 minutes, 48 seconds
Overlook the first one is the main one that's the most obvious thing and this is what we'll work through with some scenarios in a second and that is if
2:55
2 minutes, 55 seconds
there are concerns about sin or theological error in the church how much sin and error is it is it
3:03
3 minutes, 3 seconds
heresy and is it you know a clear and unrepentant sin and uh because if you're trying to find a church that has no
3:10
3 minutes, 10 seconds
error and no sin that church won't exist all churches are going to have sinful people and all churches are going to
3:17
3 minutes, 17 seconds
have imperfect theology not every sermon is going to be a slam dunk and so forth so we're trying to gauge here and this is the whole idea of triage that I talk
3:25
3 minutes, 25 seconds
about so much but there can be scenarios where it's like really clear like the church just puts heresy in its statement of faith or something like that or you
3:33
3 minutes, 33 seconds
know I've seen scenarios where there's just really abysmal uh practice of discipline and repentance to where you
3:41
3 minutes, 41 seconds
can have leaders in the church caught having an affair and yet it's swept under the rug in the name of Grace
3:48
3 minutes, 48 seconds
something like this can go on so there can be real clear moral issues or doctrinal issues when I say heresy by the way I put out a whole video on this
3:56
3 minutes, 56 seconds
which my friend CLA who's the creative director for truth units made a hilarious thumbnail for I by the way if thumbnails ever seem odd me and my wife
4:05
4 minutes, 5 seconds
actually just find them funny so we just like to laugh about them so if they annoy people sorry but it's I don't know to me it's kind of I just find them
4:13
4 minutes, 13 seconds
funny um but essentially heresy is something that destroys the gospel itself it's not just any kind of error
4:21
4 minutes, 21 seconds
it's a more serious error and of course you want to be asking about errors that are held and reflected by the leadership of the church not just by random some
4:30
4 minutes, 30 seconds
guy who happens to come to the church right so this is the most important question this is the big one we're going to come back to this work through some scenarios in a second but let's start
4:37
4 minutes, 37 seconds
some others that we might uh forget about question number two am I able to live fruitfully at this church uh the
Chapter 4: Spiritual Fruit?
4:46
4 minutes, 46 seconds
sometimes we put all the discernment on what I'm receiving and we forget to ask about am I able to contribute here you know every Christian has spiritual gifts
4:54
4 minutes, 54 seconds
or at least one spiritual gift that we are called to use are you able to do that at your church are you able to build other people up you want to ask not just what's my experience on the
5:03
5 minutes, 3 seconds
receiving end but what's my experience on the giving end that that'd be like that scenario where the guy might go to the church New Church Plant not because
5:10
5 minutes, 10 seconds
there's a something wrong but just because he has more of an opportunity that can happen a third question we can ask is about our family if you're
Chapter 5: Family?
5:17
5 minutes, 17 seconds
married Andor if you have children how's your spouse doing how are your children do it doing there are there times to
5:24
5 minutes, 24 seconds
stay at a church because other members of your family are flourishing there probably so more on that in a second
Chapter 6: Will the Church Suffer?
5:32
5 minutes, 32 seconds
question number four if I were to leave would the church suffer this is a big question because again this this can go
5:40
5 minutes, 40 seconds
so differently you know it depends on how connected we are it depends on the size of the church and the needs of the church a lot of times departing will be
5:49
5 minutes, 49 seconds
hurtful and your pastor will probably take it more personally than you realize but there's other times where leaving is again it's like if there's a new church
5:57
5 minutes, 57 seconds
plant and your church is doing fine there could be could be a no big deal kind of scenario not all departures are bad and so that's something you have to
6:05
6 minutes, 5 seconds
work through when we left ohigh we loved that church it was such a wonderful group of people and we were kind of
6:13
6 minutes, 13 seconds
happy there but I felt like God was calling me to something new and I didn't feel like my departure would damage the church I didn't feel like there's a
6:21
6 minutes, 21 seconds
three-legged stool and if I pull if I go then the stool Falls over kind of a thing it it great church great Elders great staff
6:30
6 minutes, 30 seconds
healthy you know I thought they're going to be fine and so that was a factor in my thinking about that but that's always a question to consider is if I go is it
6:38
6 minutes, 38 seconds
the three-legged stool kind of a thing where you're things are going to fall over because I'm gone another question do the leaders of the church fit 1
Chapter 7: Church Leadership?
6:47
6 minutes, 47 seconds
Timothy 3 and Titus 1 simple question of course we're not going to be against asking that question but sometimes we can forget to ask this you know this is
6:55
6 minutes, 55 seconds
the very purpose of these passages to give us the information we need about qualifications for leaders in the church specifically for elders or overseers in
7:03
7 minutes, 3 seconds
the church and they're right there in the New Testament and so you could have a scenario where the leaders of the church have great theology but there's
7:11
7 minutes, 11 seconds
abusive leadership and that's a different category than heresy you can have great theology but terrible leadership and uh again we we always got
7:21
7 minutes, 21 seconds
to try to rank issues here this is I'm not talking about if the pastors or pastor of the church is just a little bit cold and prickly or something like
7:29
7 minutes, 29 seconds
that not every Pastor needs to be super warm-hearted that's that's not in 1 Timothy 3 right um but they do need to be pastoral they do need to be have good
7:37
7 minutes, 37 seconds
character and they can't be a jerk and a bully right so that's one of the things we we want to Think Through by the way parenthetical comment here if you are at
7:46
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a church where the leaders of the church do fit with 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 they do exemplify those characteristics tell
7:55
7 minutes, 55 seconds
them so and thank them for that and encourage them the under encouragement of leaders right now and just under
8:02
8 minutes, 2 seconds
encouragement across the board is epidemic people I'm recording this November 2024 people need encouragement
8:10
8 minutes, 10 seconds
all the time a lot but right now in the world even more I think than usual it's a brutal time it's a brutal brutal time
8:19
8 minutes, 19 seconds
if you're wondering if your leaders at your church or just other people at your church need encouragement the answer is yes there's such a deficit of
8:27
8 minutes, 27 seconds
encouragement right now ah I'm going to do this a whole video on that sometime here's another question have I attempted to pray about this and work at my
Chapter 8: Prayer?
8:34
8 minutes, 34 seconds
discontentment for some period of time at my church in other words this shouldn't be a knee-jerk thing this should be something this is not a quick and light and easy decision on the other
8:42
8 minutes, 42 seconds
hand I've seen people stay on and on and on and you know you can get to a point where you just despair of anything ever
8:50
8 minutes, 50 seconds
changing and yet you're still there and so that is possible but I think probably the more common temptation is is too knee-jerk or quick a response last
Chapter 9: Fear?
8:57
8 minutes, 57 seconds
diagnostic question these are not the the only things to ask these are just I I was praying about it talking with my wife over lunch just now just coming up with things to start start percolating
9:06
9 minutes, 6 seconds
in our minds as we think about this topic together is is there any fear in me about a change why do I say that I've
9:14
9 minutes, 14 seconds
had times in my life where I I think God was calling me to do something this happened to me when I was trying to decide between two colleges was secular
9:23
9 minutes, 23 seconds
University Christian University I felt God calling me to secular un uh University of Georgia for a all variety of reasons I have no doubt about that
9:31
9 minutes, 31 seconds
now and I felt like God gave me a verse I won't go into all the details but essentially the verse was saying don't be afraid and then it gave me a promise
9:38
9 minutes, 38 seconds
and I did not realize that fear was a part of my decision-making until I got that uh Don't Be Afraid encouragement
9:48
9 minutes, 48 seconds
from the Lord I think fear can be a part of our decision-making in ways that are subconscious that we're not totally aware of and sometimes we have to have
9:56
9 minutes, 56 seconds
attention drawn to it this is just one of these things to be Discerning about this whole part of the video here we're trying to put out categories for triage
10:03
10 minutes, 3 seconds
and discernment is kind of what we're trying to do and fear you know saying is there any am I afraid of anything um maybe I know what I need to do and it's
10:12
10 minutes, 12 seconds
just uncomfortable and I'm hesitant to follow through and if that's this the case then we just have to lay that fear down and ask the Lord to give us courage
10:20
10 minutes, 20 seconds
to move forward and do the right thing let's flush this out with some scenarios I have five I hope these will be interesting and and relevant they're not
Chapter 10: Scenario 1: college student
10:27
10 minutes, 27 seconds
based on anything real directly pieces of them might be things I've seen but they're just totally fictional scenario one is the college student at a
10:35
10 minutes, 35 seconds
different denomination scenario okay you're 18 freshman in
10:42
10 minutes, 42 seconds
college uh brand new to a new city and guys in your dorm are checking out a church so you go with them and you
10:51
10 minutes, 51 seconds
really like it and it fits in naturally it just you know it's close to the school uh you have lots of connections there through other people going there
10:58
10 minutes, 58 seconds
it's a natural fit but you this is a different denomination than you grew up in and that the issues are are real issues like maybe baptism maybe it's
11:06
11 minutes, 6 seconds
like you're a Baptist and this is a Presbyterian church and you went to a low church Baptist context and this is a more formal and lurgical Presbyterian
11:14
11 minutes, 14 seconds
church or something or vice versa or something like that um but they love the gospel and you're able to grow as a Christian there and you're able to use
11:21
11 minutes, 21 seconds
your gifts to serve there and there's not a real clear reason why you wouldn't go I would say just dive in and take
11:28
11 minutes, 28 seconds
that has an opportunity to learn about another tradition in the body of Christ unless there's a clear problem or a reason to consider another church that
11:36
11 minutes, 36 seconds
comes up I think that can be a good thing and a factor there is that you're only going to be there potentially for four years at the most that you're a
11:44
11 minutes, 44 seconds
college student and kind of a unique season of life you don't have a family that you're having to think about as well um and the the principle there is
11:52
11 minutes, 52 seconds
being willing to triage doctrinal issues in light of the overarching significance of the Gospel I'm sensitive ensi to the fact that some people will disagree with
12:00
12 minutes
me on this they'll say baptism is so important you need to be at a place where they do it the right way you know and I would just say I think that there
12:08
12 minutes, 8 seconds
are such Godly churches on both sides of that issue that that's kind of an overriding consideration in my mind but I recognize some people will see it
12:15
12 minutes, 15 seconds
differently here's the scenario two that is probably extremely common one for for many of us though scenario four is going to be the one that most of my viewers uh
Chapter 11: Scenario 2: cheesy worship
12:23
12 minutes, 23 seconds
will relate to I'm sliding in because I don't know if I'm getting blurry here scenario two is the boring sermons and cheesy worship scenario okay you're a
12:32
12 minutes, 32 seconds
dad you're in your 30s uh by the way uh none of these are about me I absolutely love our church
12:39
12 minutes, 39 seconds
I'm just now I'm just cursed me to say that because I'm a dad with young kids but um our church is amazing we're so grateful to be there but a lot of times
12:48
12 minutes, 48 seconds
you find yourself in this scenario where you're at a church and let's let's say it's like this you're you're a a father and you have young kids at the church
12:56
12 minutes, 56 seconds
maybe high school kids in the youth group um and you just don't like going on Sundays you find the sermons boring you don't get a lot out of them and you
13:04
13 minutes, 4 seconds
find the worship style to be cheesy maybe it's a smaller church that doesn't have the funding to hire a worship director so someone is just up there doing their best and it's kind of a
13:13
13 minutes, 13 seconds
struggle to get through and you don't feel like you get much out of it but you are able to serve there you're maybe you're a deacon at the church um and
13:21
13 minutes, 21 seconds
your kids are flourishing in the youth group they're having a good experience and the leadership of the church is good-hearted and Orthodox it's just
13:29
13 minutes, 29 seconds
issues in the degree of giftedness okay and ultimately your Christian walk is basically going okay there it's just you
13:36
13 minutes, 36 seconds
don't like going on Sundays and it's just hard to be there and you just find yourself it grats on you and you're complaining about it on the drive home
13:44
13 minutes, 44 seconds
and this kind of thing and I would say 99 times out of 100 in that scenario stay and just don't that's not probably
13:53
13 minutes, 53 seconds
a good reason to leave all factors being considered I mean again someone might look at this a little different and it let me qualify this a little bit I'm not
14:01
14 minutes, 1 second
saying that the boring sermons and cheesy worship is unimportant those issues are that can actually affect you a lot and we should
14:10
14 minutes, 10 seconds
value Excellence so I'm not trying to minimize that but because of the various factors at play I would say stay at
14:17
14 minutes, 17 seconds
least until it becomes an absolute more of a crisis type issue and the reason is um a couple of things that you can do in the meantime is number one you can
14:25
14 minutes, 25 seconds
work really hard on being easily edified I'll come back to that in a second and the second thing is you can complement it's in this scenario it's like the the
14:33
14 minutes, 33 seconds
main downside is just the actual Sunday Morning Experience which can be complemented with other forms of learning and other forms of edification
14:41
14 minutes, 41 seconds
you can listen to Great sermons on your Monday morning bike ride as well not as a replacement but as a compliment to the Sunday morning sermons at church so the
14:49
14 minutes, 49 seconds
downsides to this scenario aren't like oh you're going to be held back and become a not a Godly Christian if you stay at this church I I don't think so
14:57
14 minutes, 57 seconds
more it's like you're just kind of struggling when you're there so what do I mean by being easily edified this may be the main thing in this video I'm passionate to say CS Lewis has a letter
15:06
15 minutes, 6 seconds
in the screw tape letters that is about church attendance and it is just pure gold I want to read from it it's so screw tape letters is one demon coaching
15:15
15 minutes, 15 seconds
another on how to tempt his patient he starts off the letter saying you mentioned casually in your last letter that the patient has continued to attend
15:22
15 minutes, 22 seconds
one church and one only since he was converted and that he is not wholly pleased with it may I ask what you are about why have I no report on the causes
15:31
15 minutes, 31 seconds
of his Fidelity to the Parish church do you realize that unless it is due to indifference it is a very bad thing surely you know that if a man can't be
15:39
15 minutes, 39 seconds
cured of church goinging the next best thing is to send him all over the neighborhood looking for a church that suits him until he becomes a taster or
15:47
15 minutes, 47 seconds
connoisseur of churches what is implicit In this passage hopefully you see already where he's going with this and what I'm trying
15:54
15 minutes, 54 seconds
to hit on here I think the Church of Jesus Christ today would be so much healthier if we took to heart so let me press this point a
16:01
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little bit all other factors being equal Fidelity to one church is very harmful to Satan and I think pleasing to God and
16:10
16 minutes, 10 seconds
so this is why I say don't leave unless there's like a clear reason to um and the reason that CS Lewis gives here he's
16:18
16 minutes, 18 seconds
giving advice let me read this from him okay if you listen to this advice from CS Lewis this will absolutely revolutionize your church experience if
16:26
16 minutes, 26 seconds
you apply this here's what he says the search for a suitable Church makes the man a Critic where the enemy wants him
16:33
16 minutes, 33 seconds
to be a pupil boom that is it right there if if we can take this to heart I think this will really help us now does that mean that you shouldn't be
16:41
16 minutes, 41 seconds
critically Discerning if heresy is coming from the pulpit absolutely not he says what he wants what God wants of the layman in church is an attitude which
16:48
16 minutes, 48 seconds
may indeed be critical in the sense of rejecting what is false or unhelpful but which is wholly uncritical in the sense
16:55
16 minutes, 55 seconds
that it does not appraise does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects but lays itself open to uncommenting
17:03
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Humble receptivity to any nourishment now you might say so in other words there might come a comment from a sermon
17:10
17 minutes, 10 seconds
you say I don't actually agree with that part of the sermon but I'm not dwelling on it I'm not angry about it and I'm not complaining to my wife on the way home
17:18
17 minutes, 18 seconds
instead I'm repenting over the parts of the sermon that did strike my conscience right that's what I think the kind of thing CS Lewis is talking about and
17:27
17 minutes, 27 seconds
here's the passage that is like a bazuka shooting our pride here he says this attitude especially during sermons creates the condition most hostile to
17:35
17 minutes, 35 seconds
our whole policy in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul there is hardly any sermon or any book
17:43
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which may not be dangerous to us if it is received in this temper do you know what a I I can't even begin to express how much I love these two sentences
17:51
17 minutes, 51 seconds
platitudes becoming audible to the human soul because of humility uh a platitude of course is
17:58
17 minutes, 58 seconds
something obvious or trit maybe something that's been said so much that it's not meaningful anymore like at a funeral if someone says well he's in a
18:06
18 minutes, 6 seconds
better place you might kind of roll your eyes because people just always say that you know and Lewis is saying God wants us to be able to be edified by true
18:14
18 minutes, 14 seconds
platitudes so imagine sitting in a church imagine a church where everybody is characterized by this this could not be more beautiful and more wonderful the
18:22
18 minutes, 22 seconds
preacher gets up and he says the sermon today is from John 3:16 and the theme of the sermon is God loves you and let me just say say that again right out of the
18:30
18 minutes, 30 seconds
gate to emphasize that upon your heart this morning God loves you now instead of people leaning back
18:38
18 minutes, 38 seconds
you know leaning back in their Pew folding their arms and thinking well let's see how he's going to do this week
18:46
18 minutes, 46 seconds
the holy spirit is speaking to hearts and ministering to hearts and people are saying wow God loves me another person
18:53
18 minutes, 53 seconds
is saying God loves me another person who feels particularly destitute over
18:59
18 minutes, 59 seconds
sins in their life is saying God loves me do you see the beauty of this don't we want to be the kind of people who are
19:08
19 minutes, 8 seconds
easily edified now I want to be careful with this because a sermon can get so boring that doesn't even have any
19:16
19 minutes, 16 seconds
platitudes right and I'm not trying to minimize the importance of Excellence edifying sermons excellent worship and so forth again this is talking about
19:23
19 minutes, 23 seconds
Orthodox good-hearted but just less skillful preaching and worship leading and so forth now here's a question
19:31
19 minutes, 31 seconds
should you attempt to help your church in this scenario have less cheesy worship and less boring sermons and I
19:39
19 minutes, 39 seconds
would say probably not and the reason is not that that isn't important and it would be good if that could be addressed
19:46
19 minutes, 46 seconds
but because it's unlikely to succeed um usually when the sermons are boring and the worship is cheesy it's
19:53
19 minutes, 53 seconds
not the kind of thing that can be fixed by someone just saying so and it might be received poor now there can be exceptions to this like if you have a leadership role in the
20:02
20 minutes, 2 seconds
church or if you're asked for your opinion or if you have a really close relationship with the pastor or the worship leader or if they're
20:09
20 minutes, 9 seconds
exceptionally humble and receptive or if you're exceptionally tactful or if the problem is a really specific issue that
20:16
20 minutes, 16 seconds
can be addressed relatively easily like the drums are way too loud and so you just don't have drums anymore and the problem solved like something like that
20:23
20 minutes, 23 seconds
maybe but almost always it's more likely to lead to conflict or discouragement than actually fixing the problem if you
20:31
20 minutes, 31 seconds
just give a generic criticism like that at the very least be very careful about that all right here's a third scenario it's called this the pastors
Chapter 12: Scenario 3: pastors getting fired
20:40
20 minutes, 40 seconds
fired without explanation scenario you've been at a church for 30 years you got saved there and baptized as a
20:48
20 minutes, 48 seconds
college student you're now a single mom there you've never even considered going to any other church it's a Neighborhood Church you live on the same street as
20:57
20 minutes, 57 seconds
the church uh um it's all the church you've ever known this is why these situations can be so painful this church has changed a lot
21:05
21 minutes, 5 seconds
over the years over the last few years the Elder Council has had a lot of conflict it's been confusing there's not transparency the net effect of
21:13
21 minutes, 13 seconds
everything is confusion 5 years ago they fired the senior pastor and another pastor and it was kind of unclear what the reason was
21:21
21 minutes, 21 seconds
It was kind of you know ambiguous after the fact you're kind of like why did they do that again um now they fired another pastor as well except they
21:30
21 minutes, 30 seconds
didn't say they fired him they framed it as it was as if it was Mutual there's you're kind of suspicious like what's going on a lot of other
21:38
21 minutes, 38 seconds
people have left the church but you feel like well I don't want to be that person who leaves just when things get tough right I don't want to leave too soon so I'm praying I'm thinking I'm trying to
21:46
21 minutes, 46 seconds
work through this there's no bad Doctrine there's no heresy um it's still a totally Orthodox Church on the surface you know things are fine in terms of
21:55
21 minutes, 55 seconds
like the doctrine being preached and so forth but but there's just this conflict and Leadership issues and so you so you
22:03
22 minutes, 3 seconds
meet with the elders and you try to understand and you're just trying to get information and not only is there not clarity about why pastors are getting
22:10
22 minutes, 10 seconds
fired but now they are portraying you as being unruly for simply asking the
22:18
22 minutes, 18 seconds
questions and as time goes by what ultimately becomes clear is there is a pretty deep dysfunction in the leadership of the church and and you
22:26
22 minutes, 26 seconds
don't have any hope that it can get better now I would say this is the scenario that is starting to get into the territory where you're you're saying
22:34
22 minutes, 34 seconds
okay I could definitely see leaving this church with a clean conscience and so forth now even here I think there can be Nuance it's not like this is a math
22:42
22 minutes, 42 seconds
problem right I mean you want to be prayerful you want to consider lots of different factors maybe there's a new pastor who's going to come in and maybe there's maybe there is hope it could
22:50
22 minutes, 50 seconds
change and so forth but this is definitely the kind of scenario where you're in Fair territory to say I could leave this church with a clear conscience because
22:58
22 minutes, 58 seconds
the issues of leadership are important and you you know in this scenario you're having to ask the question can I support
23:08
23 minutes, 8 seconds
what is happening in this church and I have seen people in situations like this stay way too long and be way too naive and that's a real danger to be alert to
Chapter 13: Scenario 4: aching for liturgy
23:15
23 minutes, 15 seconds
here's a scenario that fourth scenario this one is probably the one that's most relevant to viewers of my channel and that is the low Church aching for
23:23
23 minutes, 23 seconds
Liturgy scenario so over the last few years uh maybe maybe you're a 25-year-old single engineer um you don't
23:32
23 minutes, 32 seconds
have a family and you've discovered the church fathers you've gone through this massive theological Revolution you're reading you're literally reading like
23:40
23 minutes, 40 seconds
Lutheran Scholastics on your on the weekend you know you're like me a theology nerd and you're wanting to
23:47
23 minutes, 47 seconds
learn more and you're just yearning and aching for more substance and liturgy
23:54
23 minutes, 54 seconds
and depth and you are not getting it at your current church and and you're wondering is this a sinful discontentment should I stay and there's
24:02
24 minutes, 2 seconds
a new church plant that does have that rich liturgy that your heart is aching for and let's say in this scenario your
24:10
24 minutes, 10 seconds
absence from your current Church wouldn't necessarily harm that church you you're 25 years old let's say unfortunately you haven't gotten super plugged in there maybe it's a huge mega
24:19
24 minutes, 19 seconds
church I would say check out the new church and the reason for that is the theological positions that you have that
24:26
24 minutes, 26 seconds
have changed so much and the hunger that is in you that is so deep is something to really pay attention to if your departure is not going to damage your
24:33
24 minutes, 33 seconds
current church but the way God has constituted your convictions and your and your spiritual thirst is going to be
24:42
24 minutes, 42 seconds
met in this context then you're going to struggle with discontentment deeply at this current church and I think that's
24:50
24 minutes, 50 seconds
totally valid scenario to consider and pray again all these things need to be bathed in prayer of course here's a last scenario and this is the my church is
Chapter 14: Scenario 5: not political enough
24:58
24 minutes, 58 seconds
not political enough scenario or you could also change this one to my church is too political um so a scenario like
25:05
25 minutes, 5 seconds
this is you're concerned your church is broadly in the same place as you politically you know uh probably most
25:13
25 minutes, 13 seconds
people are think similarly on the main issues but they're not as vocal about it and you're you're thinking they need to
25:22
25 minutes, 22 seconds
be more vocal about it or they're getting too vocal about certain issues and it's making you feel uncomfortable now this is the scenario I see this is happening a lot today as well I would
25:30
25 minutes, 30 seconds
say questions to ask in this scenario because I think basically we are often too quick to divide over politics there are some political issues that are worth
25:37
25 minutes, 37 seconds
dividing over because political issues blend into moral and even doctrinal issues at times but some political issues we fight over way too much so I'd
25:46
25 minutes, 46 seconds
be asking questions like this is the agitation I'm feeling being formed mostly by Voices on the internet okay
25:53
25 minutes, 53 seconds
the internet does escalate and polarize us and we are naive if we think I'm the sole exception to that I I'm not
26:01
26 minutes, 1 second
affected by the algorithms it's just other people it's like no we're probably all affected by it way more than we realize am I in this kind of scenario am
26:09
26 minutes, 9 seconds
I reading historic Christian voices on the topics that I'm wanting to be addressed and am I listening to Christians on both sides of it let's say
26:17
26 minutes, 17 seconds
it's an issue where you can find Godly Christians on each side of the issue like health care or something like this a lot of people in the United States
26:24
26 minutes, 24 seconds
don't realize how much Christians in like the UK and other places like this really conservative Christians tend to have different instincts about how Healthcare should be handled and so
26:33
26 minutes, 33 seconds
forth um are you listening to Christians on both sides of it and then the ultimate question is the Gospel of Jesus
26:40
26 minutes, 40 seconds
Christ itself needs to be the primary center of gravity in how I'm relating at my church that has implications for
26:47
26 minutes, 47 seconds
politics for social issues for other doctrinal issues but the gospel is the main thing and I think what I what I'm
26:56
26 minutes, 56 seconds
concerned about right now is I think there's always the dangers in either extreme of political withdrawal but
27:03
27 minutes, 3 seconds
overinvestment politically and I think a lot of that right now I see you know we've seen a lot of political kind of
27:10
27 minutes, 10 seconds
quietism and withdrawal and I think there's always the danger of the pendulum swing in the other direction where now it's like you have to think just like me about politics this is my
27:19
27 minutes, 19 seconds
issue with the shepherd's for sale book not to go back into that whole thing but you know this book is calling for civil war that's the whole upshot of the book
27:28
27 minutes, 28 seconds
against leaders in the church but the presenting issues are very political very American and they all get bundled together so like abortion which I see as
27:36
27 minutes, 36 seconds
a really important issue and how covid is handled are kind of all part of the same narrative it's like those are different issues and I'm concerned about
27:45
27 minutes, 45 seconds
this because we need more Global awareness and historical awareness to see to get the profile of what are those
27:54
27 minutes, 54 seconds
issues that we actually leave a church over versus where do we need to flex toward each other and recognize Godly Christians can see some things
28:00
28 minutes
differently Healthcare is a good example and just more of an emphasis upon the gospel itself this so This the ultimate
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question here is um is the gospel defining how I relate to my church um what is the gospel the go I like to
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28 minutes, 16 seconds
summarize the gospel of four steps God sin Jesus response I know there's a lot of context for each of these points that we'll need but in a pinch if I've got 30
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seconds before I get off the subway and I can share the gospel I'm going to say say this um there is a God he made you he loves you he wants to be in a relationship with you you have sinned
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28 minutes, 33 seconds
against that God that's created a separation from him you are in need of Salvation Jesus came to be that savior he lived the life you should have lived
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28 minutes, 41 seconds
he died the death you deserve to die he rose from the dead now he calls you to respond to the gospel with faith and repentance when we put our trust in
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Christ repent of sin we are adopted as God's children we're forgiven of sins we have heaven after this life is over okay
28:57
28 minutes, 57 seconds
lot more to say than just that but that's brief try to summarize it you know and though that's what should fundamentally in our hearts make us feel
29:06
29 minutes, 6 seconds
like I'm either on the same team as this other person or I'm not and that should inform the way we think about our church involvement even if you need to leave a
29:14
29 minutes, 14 seconds
church over like a secondary Doctrine or or or a political difference becomes so deep that you have to leave we still want to be able to speak well of those
29:23
29 minutes, 23 seconds
people and pray for them and so forth so that leads to the final section here of just how to leave if you feel called to leave a church and I would say four
Chapter 15: Talking to your pastor
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things number one talk in person with the leadership of the church ideally the pastor if you have like a senior pastor
29:40
29 minutes, 40 seconds
and be humble in that conversation that is a tough one you don't want to I don't think you want to do it through email especially if you've been real
29:48
29 minutes, 48 seconds
involved um or even a phone call I think you want to meet and may maybe even though give them a heads up about it by email so it's not a shock in the moment
29:56
29 minutes, 56 seconds
say I would love to meet with you here's why and then be really humble and be really kind I think it
30:04
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is just to be honest with you I think pastors take it more personally than we sometimes realize and it hurts and it's
30:11
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hard and right now again pastors it's the hardest time I've ever seen in my life to be a pastor I think it's gotten harder since covid a lot of pastors feel
30:19
30 minutes, 19 seconds
like a lightning rod no matter what you do people are going to be upset with you this kind of feeling and so just a little bit of love and and Grace in
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30 minutes, 27 seconds
those conversations can go a long way second thing is if you do feel called to leave a church I would say have a consistent script uh come up with like a
Chapter 16: Having a consistent message
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30 minutes, 36 seconds
brief statement for why you're leaving and then stick to that and that's just a strategic thing that I don't think is I
30:44
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I I realize that could sound almost manipulative or overly formal but I actually think it helps because what happens is it leads to a lot of
30:51
30 minutes, 51 seconds
confusion when if you just leave it to any old conversation you'll be more open in some conversations than others and there can be a Temptation because you
31:00
31 minutes
don't want to hurt someone's feelings you might not really go into something and then but to someone else you might share more openly and this leads to confusion because now people are hearing
31:08
31 minutes, 8 seconds
different reasons for why you left and simple thing is just come up with a way that's honest but it doesn't have to be super detailed and explain it and stick
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to the script a third thing and this is hopefully goes without saying but it's good to emphasize anyway is pray for the church and try to bless them on your way
Chapter 17: Leaving Well
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out maybe do what whatever you can do so that it's very clear hey if this is still an orthodox church meaning they
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preach the gospel make it very clear that like we are still on the same team here and do everything you can to reduce any hurt so
31:43
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that it's not awkward when you bump into people at soccer practice or whatever don't underestimate how painful this is it is tough um maybe you write an
31:51
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encouraging note to the elders on your way out something like this maybe you maybe you go back and visit for a Christmas service or something like this you know whatever you can do to try to
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maintain good relationship if that's appropriate if it's a still an orthodox church lastly I would say is quickly
Chapter 18: Diving in Quickly to a New Church
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dive into membership and service at your new church don't let it be an excuse to take a six-month pause or to just be a
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32 minutes, 14 seconds
consumer for a while dive in to serve because I think honestly the heart in all of this is that God wants us to be engaged at a local church serving and
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that's where we're going to grow think of that CS Lewis letter you know it is harmful to the enemy's work in our lives if you're at church every Sunday by the way that's another thing to say is go
32:31
32 minutes, 31 seconds
every week the average Church attendance now is like every other week if people say I go to a church that what they typically mean now is I go twice a month
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32 minutes, 40 seconds
it wasn't like that 30 years ago but again never been hard never been harder for churches to function this is a non-exhaustive issue there is so much
32:48
32 minutes, 48 seconds
more to say but hopefully this gives a few helpful thoughts along the way what would you add let me know what you would add to this in the comments I'll make sure to read through the comments on
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this video thanks for watching everybody
Questions
Is there heresy happening?
No. There aren't any major issues that the leadership of the church is partaking in
Am I able to live fruitfully at this church?
Can we use our spiritual gifts? Can we build other people up?
This is something that I struggle with. It's not black and white for me.
Yes, in part I can. We are active members of the worship team. I have given it a lot of effort over the years (and even led it for a season), but it's not something that I feel like it done with excellence. There has been a lot of turmoil within that group, and I don't see my giftings able to make it better.
I led the band again for a few weeks back in June 2026. Almost immediately, all of the things I initialized were brought in as new processes and structures. Yes, that is movement in the right direction, but I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall.
Yes, by being a part of this ministry, I know that my impact on the church is large. But, I feel stalled out over the last six years.
How is our family doing there?
It has been a source of discontentment for the last year or two. Simply going to church has been a struggle because we know that the only people interested in building community are the worship pastor and his wife.
When we go to church, it has been a struggle to get Allie out of the car (and that's not just because of too little coffee). We leave with a laundry list of complaints.
If I were to leave, would the church suffer?
Would our departure damage the church?
The worship pastor would absolutely feel our departure, but outside of that, no. Right now, Allie and I are the only people on the worship team that play instruments. When we leave, the immediate ramification would be that our worship pastor would be the solo instrumentalist for a while.
So yes, our lack of presence would be felt, but it would not cause the church to suffer.
Subtext on the worship team
In June 2026, our worship pastor (JC) was put on a temporary "sabbatical" from leading worship because he needed to get outside the four walls of our church and find new ways to do things and to get ideas. I had dinner with JC, and he told me that the synopsis of the conversation was: "I was told that basically, ever since I started my job here, I haven't moved the needle an inch, and in fact the worship team is in worse shape ever since I got here. My calling is to be a worship pastor, and I feel like I am completely failing at that."
I found out shortly after that dinner that the entire pastoral relationship committee (aka. the pastor's sounding board) all resigned on the same day due to how the situation with JC was handled. They had been told that Joe was "handling" the issues with worship over the past 12 months, and when they found out that JC's world was shattered, they all resigned because that's not how those conversations were supposed to happen.
During the month of his absence, I talked with Joe some about the team (primarily because I was leading the band a number of those Sundays). We had chatted about the purpose of the sabbatical, and "worship" on Sunday mornings in general. A few takeaways from those conversations that bothered me:
"Congregants come to our service late (aka. after worship is over) because there isn't anything new and exciting": while these weren't the specific words, they hold the essence. We shouldn't be performing on stage FOR the congregation. "Acoustic" worship sets tend to "bore" our congregation. "We need to have more people on stage to get more families involved, no matter the quality." Now, I'm all for getting people involved, but if people are leaving the church because the worship isn't exciting enough, that's not the point of worship.
"They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers." (Acts 2)
Do the leaders of the church fit 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1?
This is in connection with the church we are currently at.
Have I attempted to pray about/work at my discontentment at my current church?
This shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction.
In all honesty, the past year or two have been fairly devoid of prayer and reading of my Bible.
Is there any fear about change?
Am I afraid of anything? Maybe I know what I need to do but I'm hesitant to follow through.
Other topics
CS Lewis quote
"you mention casually in your last letter that the patient has continued to attend one church and one only since he was converted, and that he is not wholly pleased with it. May I ask what you are about? Why have I no report on the causes of his fidelity to the parish church? Do you realize that, unless it is due to indifference, it is a very bad thing? Surely you know that if a man can't be cured of church-going, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighborhood looking for the church that suits him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches "
"the search for a suitable church makes the man a critic where the enemy wants him to be a pupil"
"once what God wants of the layman and churches is an attitude which may indeed be critical in the sense of rejecting what is false or unhelpful. It is holy, uncritical in the sense that it does not praise what it rejects, does not waste time thinking about it, but lays itself open to humble, receptive commentary on any nourishment "
"this attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition most hostile to our whole policy in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul. There is hardly any sermon or any book which may not be dangerous to us if it is received in this temper"
Liturgical
Is there a strong desire to dive deeper at another church and it would lead to discontentment?
Entrepreneurial Spark
Jason Fried — Great design was a Cuisinart
"Big flat toggle buttons under satisfying tension. Clear affordances. You push them down, not in. One click catches, one doesn't. You can use them with bare hands, oven mitts, fingers coated in slippery whatever. Doesn't matter. Plenty of surface area.
Outstanding design. It's all been downhill from there."
Source
Chris:
I've noticed this a lot with my devices recently. Everything's gone toward the touchscreen route -- has been for the better part of a decade.
I have a sound machine I only use at night. Multiple buttons: skip previous/next (two), volume up/down (two), and a power button in the middle with the others flanking it. But none of these buttons are tangible. In the middle of the night, trying to turn it on, I have to feel my way around to a very particular section where I've found a divot in the plastic. My hands now know where the power button is relative to that divot.
Zoom back 15-20 years, it was like cars -- you could just put your hand on the AC dial and know how many physical clicks it took to hit the temperature you wanted. We lost that.
I feel this is coming back in web, slowly but surely, as we went to this very flat, mono-style structure with design. I think we're going to see a comeback -- both in the real world with physical buttons AND in the web/tech world -- of texture and uniqueness. Curious to see how that takes place in a very digital world.