Robert Carnes - F2F
Chris LaFay: Hi, I'm on. I ended up being on back to back. So I'm gonna run the restroom really quick. I'll be right back.
Robert Carnes: Go for.
Chris LaFay: Good morning. How has your week started off for you?
Robert Carnes: Not too bad.
Chris LaFay: Normal, everyday, regular?
Robert Carnes: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. It's, it's funny being caught like in the between like, huh. As Mickey and Ally are like charting a new course and I'm like trying to send them off well but also like, I don't know what you're, what direction you're really going in and that's okay. But thumbs up. So like, yeah, on meetings and stuff, they're like, well, we could do this. And I'm like, cool, I'll kind of be here. But like just. Whereas usually I would jump in and have an opinion and try to contribute, now I'm like, just stepping back because I'm like, this is more of your thing. So. Okay. I don't know. It's an interesting place to be.
Chris LaFay: Are you busy?
Robert Carnes: Not as busy as I was. And part of that is because a lot of like, some of like the leadership meetings I'm not in anymore. Yeah, we have fewer clients, I have less. Like, I don't have an internal team anymore so like I don't have to like manage them. Yeah, I'm not doing any of that stuff. Yeah, I'm not going into like, hey, I'm going to promote like meetups and I'm going to try to start thinking like long term and strategy stuff. Like a lot of that is just kind of like is no longer relevant or needed. So I'm like, okay, now I'm just kind of more of a doer and getting, getting the stuff done for the clients we have left that's done well and then looking for a job. So yeah, I mean it's, there are things to do. I, I'm keeping busy. But it's not, it's not the same level or not what it was before. So.
Chris LaFay: Yeah, it's an odd feeling. I've not gone through exactly that. But yes, it's the shift of like you're. Any large shift of a mindset takes a while to kind of get into those like new mental habits and new routines and whatnot. And that's, that takes a while. Like we just got rid of leadership team meetings. I was like, bye. These are serving absolutely no purpose. And I just started this week or actually a couple weeks ago with another entrepreneur friend of mine. I was like the one thing that leadership team meetings were good for, at least in my company Were like, accountability on a couple of, like, you know, checklist things, the stuff that I don't like doing. But I had to put a number in a spreadsheet and I made sure that I did it. Like, that was it. I told him, I was like, you have to do boring things. I have to do boring things. What if we did boring things together? And so once a week, Monday mornings at 9am, we hop on a video call. We don't really talk. We're like, what's the one thing that you're doing? And what were the metrics from last week? And we talk about that for about seven minutes, and then we just work. And I'm like, that was the most productive team meeting that I've had in forever. That's the way to do it. Get stuff done.
Robert Carnes: Yeah. So you figured out the most valuable thing from that meeting was the accountability piece, and you just extracted that and just made that a meeting. Yeah, exactly.
Chris LaFay: And like, there's something about having somebody, even though, like, you're not, like, watching each other work, it feels like you're in the same room. And you told this person at the beginning, I, I'm going to accomplish X by the time this hour is up. And then you just go, oh, so.
Robert Carnes: It'S even accountability for, like, the next. Like, I need to work on this. This thing. I'm going to sit here and let you be a fly on the wall while I do it.
Chris LaFay: Yes.
Robert Carnes: Okay.
Chris LaFay: And you just. We just sat silently for the most part. Like, there was something that I created during that time where I was like, I think that this dude would. It would help him out. And so I was like, hey, by the way, I just created this, like, email structure that I think would help you and the stuff you're doing. I copy and pasted it. I texted to him. I was like, you don't have to worry about it now, but just like, shove it away somewhere because I think this will save you some time later. And he was like, sounds great. And then like, I need to. To prep a marketing email. I was like, it should take me 45 minutes. And that's what I did.
Robert Carnes: Let's just do like, okay.
Chris LaFay: So school. So how have your meetings been going the last week or so? With other people, other things.
Robert Carnes: Good. I've still got. I've got a couple more lined up, like, this week, so I'm looking forward to them. I do. I think maybe the most helpful thing would be because I have not officially applied anywhere. I'm just, again, I think I've Just been talking to folks, but I'm going to apply with. You were at the conference, right? So you saw Katie Wagner? Yeah, yeah, so. And she's really good friends with Ally and Allie. Told her what's going on and like, their decision and she's like, okay, cool. I want to talk to most of your team that you're letting go. It's like, okay. So I had a conversation with her last week. It was like, yeah, I mean, I think highly of her. Like, the stuff that I've seen about her agency, I'm like, this is really cool. The interesting thing was I had thought like, even before all of this happened, like late last year, I was like, I. I think I might want to move more into like a doer role or like, I want to, like, I enjoy the writing part of things. I enjoy the strategy part of things. Like, maybe I should go back and just kind of be more of like a high level copywriter rather than like a director kind of stuff. Like, less overseeing people and more just like executing on stuff. It's like, ah, that feels right maybe. And so when again this happened and I was looking around, I was looking more at like, do I want to do like writing stuff? Do I want to do copywriting stuff? Do I want to go back into journalism? I don't know. I'm trying to have a very high level approach of like, I don't want to shut any doors. I just want to think about, like, what I could do. And so when I was talking to Katie and I was like telling, she was like, what. What would you ideally like to do within an agency? And I told her that and she's like, cool, I hear you good that you kind of know what you want. She's like, I will also be honest and say I'm not seeing a demand for that anymore. It sucks. But like, everybody, like, at least from her perspective, like, she said that, she's like, people's perception is that AI can take that so they don't want to pay for it anymore. She's like, I don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if I like that. But she's like, that's the reality of what we're seeing at her agency. Okay? So I said, well, what, what then? Like, what, what positions do you have open? What are you hiring for? And she said, what I really need right now is a account manager. She's like, I really think you could be really good for it. I think based on your skill. Like, she sat there at home it's like, was like trying to sell me on it.
Chris LaFay: Yeah.
Robert Carnes: Which I was like, I don't know, like I, it feels weird to me. And like again she, she was like, I think you could do this. I think you'd be great. I, I mean I do think based on my experience and stuff, I, I think I could make it happen. The hard part for me just like personally is like, is that what I want to do? It's, it's more project management, it's more client facing stuff. It's more like logistics. Like ah, that was, that felt like the stuff I was trying to get away from. That felt like the opposite of the direction I wanted to go in. But I mean, you know, she hasn't offered me a job or anything, but she's like, she's trying to convince me that I'd be good for the job. So I have a pretty strong feeling that I think it could work out. They are a good agency. It seems like it'd be pretty flexible. I would enjoy working with her. Like there is like latitude and movement, like opportunities, growth and stuff. So I'm like, there's a lot of, like a lot of positive things in this direction. But also I'm like, dude, is this what I want to do? And I've talked to my wife and she's like maybe it doesn't even matter. Like, maybe you don't like it and it sucks for two years, but maybe you move like you get experience and you move somewhere else. So I don't know, just being very frank between you and me, like that's kind of what I've been through right now. So I'm gonna, I mean I'm gonna apply for it. I going to like send in my resume this week and just say, yeah, let's, let's talk through it. I mean there's still a lot of things I don't know like what their processes are about, like expectations or certain things. So like I still want to learn more. I'm not so like again I'm trying to be open, open minded, open to anything. So I'm like, yeah, I'll, I'll at least talk to you about it and see if I'm a good fit. And maybe they determine like, hey, after talking to you, maybe you're not. So that's kind of the biggest thing. Like that's. It feels like the biggest opportunity. It feels like the best next right direction. And I mean I've looked through a lot of other opportunities and openings and in fact there's another Agency that I know people at, that's in Atlanta, that also has an account manager role open.
Chris LaFay: Which one?
Robert Carnes: Market Wake.
Chris LaFay: Oh, yeah, I know. So how well do you know? I know they're a large company. How well do you know the person that you know? That's a weird question.
Robert Carnes: So I actually know four or five people there. Oh, so one, one person who actually holds one of those jobs now is someone I worked with for several years in my previous company. Another person is somebody that I volunteer with at ama. She also is an account manager there. And then the guy who's the vp, like the guy in Chart, like he's the second in command or whatever. He and I do jiu jitsu together. So I don't know him professionally, but I know him in a weirdly intimate personal way. So. Yeah.
Chris LaFay: You do jiu jitsu?
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: Okay, we'll just tack that over. There is something new and interesting that I just learned about today. Okay. So I'm sorry, you said jiu jitsu and my brain died. What was the. So I, I caught all the kind of the details of like, you know, this person, this person, this person. What was the role at Market Wake?
Robert Carnes: It's, it's like they have like, it's like account manager, digital strategist. Here, let me pull.
Chris LaFay: Okay.
Robert Carnes: Yeah. Senior account manager, digital marketing strategist.
Chris LaFay: So. Okay, got it. So similar. It's similar to Katie Wagner's.
Robert Carnes: Yes, yes.
Chris LaFay: What about account management terrifies you? I'm using intentionally strong terminology.
Robert Carnes: Yeah. And I, I, I would almost even push, but like this, I don't even know if like terrified is even the right word. I think it's more just like, I don't know, like I've done, I've had project management jobs before and I wasn't super thrilled about it because I was the one who had to be like tactical and executiony instead of like more creative and like get to think big. And so like I've gotten to be more creative at Green Melon and I'm like, oh, do I have to move back to that even though I know I can do it or. Yeah.
Chris LaFay: So I have a clarifying question. So in the, the spaces that I'm aware of, which in reality is a relatively small sample size, account managers are normally not the ones doing the day to day project management. Typically you have a team of project managers and then an account manager that kind of is headed like that last job title you said account manager and direct, like pro, like strat, like strategist is kind of that you're coming in and helping create the strategy. You're being, you're. You're the brains on the phone call. And then the project manager that works with you is the one that then takes all that and then distills it all down and make sure that people get their job done on a regular basis. So account management, especially at larger companies like Market Wake Up, I feel like would lean more into that strategist role that you're talking about. It just has a different title associated with it right now. At a smaller agency, you. You lean into the possibility of an account manager, such a fancier title for a project manager that has a creative bone in their body. So talk to me a little bit about that.
Robert Carnes: Yeah, and that is what's interesting because I'm. I'm having to like, I've been in this role and I mean, essentially am kind of the account manager.
Chris LaFay: That's what I was thinking.
Robert Carnes: All of our clients. Yeah, yeah. And the strategist and. But like, we have a good project manager and she does all that stuff. So I end at kwsm, from the brief conversation I had with Katie. She said they have like a strategy team and I think they have like project managers. Well, like, even though the account manager does more project management. So like, that's even what I'm trying to like, delineate is like, where is the lines drawn? And I think the account manager is more just like the person, the webbing in between it all, who's responsible for all the things. And I think that is maybe even that like, just level of responsibility. Like I'm going to be the guy who has to get all the pieces in the right place and make sure they're going together. Like, I can do that. I think sometimes, like, I think in my mind I was more like, maybe even just being out of, like, laziness was like, I would rather just write and just do that and not have to worry about all this stuff. Like, it feels like there. There would be a higher level of responsibility and like lift. And I'm like, I would have to kind of gear myself up to do that and like, lead a client call. Like, I can lead a client call all day long. It's a lot more draining and it's a lot because I'm like, more introverted and I have to like, turn it on for somebody. And then like, I. At the end, I'm just exhausted, so. Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, I think that's. That's where the rub is. Like, I'm just trying to figure out, like, I don't think there's a right or wrong decision. It's just like, what is going to. What am I gonna want to do even if like, okay, cool. This isn't my ideal thing, but like everything else about this job might be right. And that's what I'm kind of feeling like if I had to choose between all the different jobs, like, I don't know if that would be the one. But in terms of like the opportunity and the company and the flexibility and all that kind of stuff, like it checks like almost every other box in my mind.
Chris LaFay: I have a couple of thoughts to throw at you. And this is more just like throwing spaghetti at a wall and see what sticks. And some of it might not. It doesn't matter at the end of the day. So I have a designer that I work with. His name is Claude. He's a freelancer. I've known him since 2019. He has a full time job he loved. I actually just, just got the phone with him talking about a potential project. All that being said is Claude has worked at tiny agency before, like kind of like green melon size. He has worked at Market Wake and loved Market Wake as a designer. He was on like one of their pro. They had a product idea at one point and he was the one designing that product. And I think that product took a turn and they let go of the whole team something akin to that. He's also had a couple of uber corporate design jobs where it's been like, we have a style guide. Don't be creative, Just put the puzzle pieces together.
Robert Carnes: Just. Yeah.
Chris LaFay: And I, I've talked, I've known him throughout all these things. And I'm not saying that you and Claude are similar, but I'm tossing this concept out here to you is you like creativity, you like writing, but also with everything that's out there right now, a small business focusing in on good creative writing is going to be hard because small business attracts smaller clients. And those are the folks that AI has taken, you know, taking a dump on right now. Right? The thing that I've asked Claude and I've talked to him a lot about this, I'm like, why? Like right now he's in one of his corporate jobs and I'm like, do you enjoy it? He's like, it's so easy. I was like, okay, but isn't that boring? Like you're literally just taking like things from a style guide and like putting them together all day. He's like, yes, it's easy. It's Mindless. That's okay. I get paid decently for it, and then I'm able to use the creativity juices in my head towards stuff that actually moved the needle for somebody else. Whereas when I was working at Market Wake and I was doing all this design work day over day, eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, 50 hours a week, I didn't. I was exhausted, and I didn't have the. The mental capacity to do anything else with my creativity because I gave it all to Market Week. And that's not a bad thing. He just likes the ability to go into a job, do what he needs to do, do a good job, be challenged a little bit here and there, but the areas that he wants to refine and be super creative on, he knows that there's not as much of a need in this, like, small business space that he really likes working in. So he funnels all of that into. He funnels all that creative juice into projects working with me and a couple of other people as well, too. And he finds a lot of joy in that. And so my. I know that kind of the situation you're in is kind of the opposite, whereas, like, the account management stuff is going to be a little bit more mentally taxing and this than the other. But you haven't worked at a large business in a while. Market Wake is a large business relative to the, like, what you and I have been up to the last five, six years.
Robert Carnes: Right.
Chris LaFay: Like, there could be something at Market Week to where it might end up being that even though it might be some of the stuff that you're not used to doing and might not want to do, but because of their scale, the quantity of what you have to do might be a little bit less, and you might not have to work as hard as you do at a small business where you're kind of the Jack of all trades, do all the things, and by focusing and doing a really good job on one thing, might leave your creative juices open to other other things. Did that story make sense? And I realize it might not apply, but it's still an experience and a story, and I think that those are better than advice at the end of the day.
Robert Carnes: Yeah. And I think that is one of the things that's maybe also a little daunting is the fact that, yeah, I've worked on such a small team for the last five years and loved it. And like, I. I was always like, oh, cool, like, why would I ever go work for a bigger company? Like, I can make such a big impact here and it's so amazing and like all that stuff and not to say that like kwsm, Katie Wagner's company or even, I mean market rates, they're bigger but they're not like massive. They're not like a Home Depot that's 10,000 employees. Like they're, you know, 50, 60, 70 employees which is still much bigger than Green Melon. So like I'm so out of that loop and so out of like knowing what it, what the expectations are. So I think there's even just like a level of not overwhelm but like apprehension around like going back into a place that's that big. But I think that's going to be where there's opportunities right now. So yeah, that's part of what's eating at me. And then yeah, I mean I also want to have those conversations around expectations to be like, yeah, what kind of would my responsibilities be? And I probably would be more focused in a narrower lane rather than Green Melon where I was just running in like a big pasture. But which was also could be overwhelming because it was so much green space that I could just kind of go run and do things. So that would be interesting. I was going to say something. Oh, I did give a thought to like because yeah, I, I, my wife works for a big law firm downtown and she's like we have a big marketing team and she's like I don't even know what they do but they get paid. Like they're all like getting paid six figures and I don't think they do anything. And I'm like, man, wouldn't it be like great to have that gig where they're like. Because I can look at their website and it's awful and I can look at their social media and it's like non existent. Like all their like, like digital marketing stuff looks just bad. And they have a big team and they're all getting like healthy paid. And so I'm sure they're like and, and I told her that I was like, wouldn't it be nice if I could just like earn a nice big paycheck for very little work? She's like, yeah, but you'd be bored.
Chris LaFay: And go back to the cloud example though if you got an easy paycheck that didn't necessarily require you to work 40 hours a week, you, you enjoy working like you enjoy, you enjoy doing stuff like you don't, you don't sit on your hands well, which I don't know you like super well. So there's a Little bit of an assumption there, but yeah. So like the joy of a potentially boring job, especially one that doesn't take you 40 hours of work a week, gives you like, I just hit up Claude. Claude has a full time job next week. I have a client meeting where we're gonna do discovery. And I was like, can you come with me for an hour and a half? And he was like, yep, I definitely can do that. And so. But then he doesn't clock in or clock out. He puts in his time. It doesn't really matter.
Robert Carnes: Right. So that's nice that he not only has that security or whatever, but he's also got the flexibility where he can just drop in and do whatever, man.
Chris LaFay: So again, it's not that level of flexibility is not the same across the board, don't get me wrong. But a job like that, that could be flexible might give you the ability to test the waters on some fun ideas that you have or if there's a person you would like to potentially work with, but you might not. Like, like, let's say Katie Wagner, let's say the role that she has for you, that's full time, that's the account manager, isn't what you want, but she does have writing stuff for you. You can just maybe like, hey, the AM thing is not my thing, but I think what I'm going to do is go get a very easy job over here. Can I help you with this? For like, you know, X amount of dollars a month, whatever that smaller number is, to where you don't have to make a ridiculously high rate to, to justify it, just to justify the work and to justify the cost, to allow yourself to see if it works. And then you get into their ecosystem and let's say that you just enjoy the people.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: And you're like, I do actually like the people here and I think I could do this job that I didn't think I wanted. But the people are good and the people make life easy.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: So I'm just tossing a lot of like story things.
Robert Carnes: Yeah, yeah, that's good. This is helpful. It's also that like, I'm sure it's not that easy just to get like, oh yeah, sure, I want a big corporate job that's 100 and I get a nice big paycheck and it's not, it's demanding and I've got easy flexibility. Like, I would love for that to just fall in my lap. But it's, it's also about who you know and the people who I know. Right. Now are in a lot of agencies who have this opportunity. So. Yeah, I don't know.
Chris LaFay: Let me. Hold on. I'm sending a text message really quick.
Robert Carnes: Okay.
Chris LaFay: How would you describe what it is that you want to do? Not the account management thing, but like the. The other stuff.
Robert Carnes: I don't know. And that's part of what I'm trying to figure out. And I will also say I don't want to get too, because I think maybe the thing that would be. Maybe the thing that I should be prioritizing and valuing right now is the flexibility and the part of being just part of a good company and those kind of things and maybe like the output. Because I've also. I mean, I've done copywriting stuff. I do copywriting stuff freelance. And like, I know how to do it. And my wife was even saying, maybe this is an opportunity for you to learn something that's slightly different and outside of your skill set. And that way, you know, you can do it, you do it for two years and you move on or whatever, but maybe you love it and stay for longer than that. I don't know. Like. So I guess I have been trying to think it. Like, is there something to be said about something that may be outside of what I want, quote unquote. But maybe what I need or maybe help grow me in a couple different ways. And like that there is a. I don't know, I may have a hesitancy because I may, like, I know that this would grow me and I know this would stretch me and that. That can be painful sometimes, but maybe that's what's needed. I don't know.
Chris LaFay: Just.
Robert Carnes: Yeah. Okay.
Chris LaFay: So through all this discussion, I just remembered I have a friend that works at recruiting company here in Atlanta. His name is Mark Barney Castle, former worship pastor. And the company is large. The recruiting company is large. Mark actually got my designer, Claude the gig that he has right now. Okay. And they do. They do a smattering of different things, but Chick Fil A is one of their primary clients that they have. And so I just shot him a text that kind of summarized the stuff that you just said in a slightly different way. Because, Mark, normally they have a lot of marketing related things open in general at any given time.
Robert Carnes: Sure.
Chris LaFay: Sometimes it's with the company, sometimes it's with other companies. This is the company that if I ever had to go get a job, I would. This is the guy I wouldn't. I know the owner of the company as well too. If ever I had to go get A job. This is the company that I would work. I would. I would call first. Yeah, they are.
Robert Carnes: What's the name of the company again?
Chris LaFay: Stratfield Consulting.
Robert Carnes: Oh, I think I've heard of them.
Chris LaFay: I know the owner, Tim Smith, very, very well. Tim Smith was my first, like, mentor in business. And I met him. He had a stint at a. He had a stint at another agency for about six months. And our. The God like was like, you need to meet him right now. And I had no idea why. But then like three years later, I was like, hey, Tim, remember me? I'm the random guy that you shook hands with every morning at 6am because we're early risers and got to the office early. And then shortly after that, he became my mentor and has hung out with me since then. So anyway, they have a great company. You're not going to find a lot of stuff on their website because it sucks.
Robert Carnes: It's not.
Chris LaFay: It's not bad. But I know Tim. I know Butch Some. I know their marketing director, Alexa Ellis. I'm actually having coffee with her next week. I'm very heavily. Put it this way. There was a time last year where I was considering selling my business and I was. I had Tim's number. Like, I. I almost pushed call to like ask him what it would look like if I brought my clients to Stratfield and did something unique at Stratfield. That's like. So anyway, Mark is somebody that's on the ground there that knows a lot of things. And so I just hit him up to see because he also loves to have conversations. And Mark is a good guy. And so if he says yes, I would highly recommend talking to him.
Robert Carnes: Sure.
Chris LaFay: So. And he's over Washington. You're not. I've been meeting more people in Gwinnett county recently and I keep thinking that people are living in Gwinnett County. I was like, no, not everybody does. Just. I've been stumbling upon more people in Gwinnett county recently. So anyway, when he gets back with me, I will shoot you a text and let you know.
Robert Carnes: That sounds good. I am. Because I'm preparing to apply to KWSM soon. I'm trying to put the final polishes on my resume and portfolio because I haven't. I hadn't looked at that in like five or six years. Yeah, I think it's still okay. And I'm.
Chris LaFay: I'm.
Robert Carnes: I don't know. I feel like a lot of other things matter a whole lot more than your resume, but I'm working on that so I can I should have something ready to send him to start that conversation if he is interested. But, yeah, that. That seems like a great contact. I appreciate you mentioning that.
Chris LaFay: No, definitely. So have you hit a Black Airplane?
Robert Carnes: Have I looked at their, like, site?
Chris LaFay: Do you know, like, I know you work with them and that, like, yeah, they have a type. I know that they mostly do, like, web and app stuff, but, like, I.
Robert Carnes: Looked and did not see. Yeah, I mean, I know. I know those guys pretty well. I mean, because when I worked at Orange, Orange was their biggest client for a while. So, like, I worked at I as. I was, like, not the only representative, but, like, we were a client of theirs. And then I came over Green Melon, and then, I don't know, became friends with that. Yeah, so, no, I. I've known Black Airplane for a long time. In fact, I know the guy who founded it and sold it to them years and years ago, so.
Chris LaFay: Oh, Andrew. I didn't realize that Michael was not the founder of it.
Robert Carnes: So it started a quick, funny story. The guy, a guy who worked at Orange, he likes to name things. And so he had a freelance business that was just him doing development stuff. And so he called it Black Airplane. It was just, like, running with it, had the URL and all that stuff. Then his brother was like, hey, I want to start a business. I really like your name. Can I have it? And he was like, yeah, sure. So he gave it to Jamie, gave it to John, John ran it, and then met David Leggett and Michael Caldwell, and they beat. They invested, became partners, and then eventually bought John out and moved on. So, like, there's a couple degrees of separation, but I know the original two guys who, like, put it together. So anyway. And now I know Michael.
Chris LaFay: Yeah, that. That's nuts.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: Huh?
Robert Carnes: Let me see. But, yeah, I've been to their offices up in Woodstock. I. Yeah, I know those guys. I don't. They did not have a job. Like. Yeah, it's mostly just, like, development stuff. I don't think they have a ton of, like, marketing kind of stuff.
Chris LaFay: But do you know anybody over at Acadia? Have you heard of Acadia?
Robert Carnes: I know Acadia because Ali is friends with one of the agencies that they bought.
Chris LaFay: Yep. Chantelle or Chantal Chris. Right. I've realized that there's, like, Chantel, Allie, and, like, two or three other women, like, agency people that all know each other. And I realized, Yeah, I poked into that circle. I was like, how do you all know each other? I was like, oh, it's like this. Like, it's like this, like little, like five or six of them that all are connected.
Robert Carnes: Yeah. So that's the main way I. I'm looking up their team to see if I know anybody else there. Not really close. No.
Chris LaFay: Mark, yes. With about 15 S's. Sounds like somebody I would love to chat with. With. So, okay. Mark is one of these high quality human beings. Mark is just one of. He is a golden retriever. He is just one of the nicest people I've known him. We led worship together for years and years and years. Still do on occasion, just fantastic people.
Robert Carnes: When you leave, you just do that at like, random churches or do you do that at a church?
Chris LaFay: So he has been a worship pastor for a long time. And so it's normally been like, come join me, and I come join him. And he needs help. But we have also. There have been times where we've had friends where we've. Back in, like, high school and college, we were like, hey, buddy, you have a small church. Does your worship team want a day off? We'll come and, like, do like an acoustic set sort of thing.
Robert Carnes: Nice.
Chris LaFay: And so we've done some of that kind of stuff before.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: Yeah. So he. He was one of those folks that was like lifelong church workers. And then I was having coffee with him one day. He was like, I think I want to get it changed up. And I was on the phone about to talk to Tim Smith, the Stratfield guy. Tim was about to start this program to train new recruiters because he was trying something new out on how he got recruiters to come in. He was like, I'm gonna hold, like, recruiter university and teach everybody everything and then hire the one or two people that are like, the best out of that group. And I'm just going to train them for two months. That's going to be my hiring process rather than trying to find people for two months.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: Okay. And I was on the phone with Tim. As I was walking out of the coffee shop, I'm like, tim, hold on one second. I run back into the coffee shop like, mark, what's the likelihood you want to be a recruiter? He's like, I don't know, maybe. I was like, what if I told you the guy that owns the company is like, one of the best people I know? He was like, okay. So they're like, hey, Tim, I got you a lead. Do you want to meet him? Sure. Former worship pastor. He was like, even better. And now he has a job there, so just good people. So I'm Going to send you a mutual text message that literally just says, robert, meet Mark. I will let you guys schedule something. I will tell him I've now told you about him. I will then text him more information about you, but schedule something. Mark's pretty free in general, so.
Robert Carnes: Okay.
Chris LaFay: That was a lot. Welcome to the fire hose. That is Chris Le Fay.
Robert Carnes: Welcome to the firehouse. It's good stuff, man. I really appreciate it. Even just the opportunity to, like, just think through some of this stuff. Because I've been. I've been in my head for a little while again, I think. I mean, I think I'll find a good opportunity. I'm not, like, worried about that. I'm just like, I feel like I've got so many different potential things. Like, I could talk to him and I could talk to this person. I could go to this agency. Like, I. I want to make a wise decision and take my time, but also not, like, sit on my hands for so long. Like, you said that, like, things just pass by, so it's that weird. Like, I want to hustle, but also be patient.
Chris LaFay: What I. What I've learned over time, and this is not 100% true, but I feel that when opportunities come up and that it. Don't take this at 100% face value. I'm going to say it's easier to say yes and to go with something that you feel content with quickly and make a change later than it is to sit on your hands now. A lot of the experience that I have in this is like, letting people go. It's bad to just keep people and hang them along and all this chats and blah, blah, and there's bad decisions there. But I've also found that if, like, God opens a door and you're comfortable and you're content with it, there's a difference between comfortable and contentedness. Like, don't get me wrong, there's a. There's a chasm there. But, like, if there's contentedness, I have started because I am also a dilly dalier. I am. I'm a perfectionist. I need everything to line up in the box before I push go. I've been trying to teach myself that 80 is okay. Now, obviously, career decisions are big decisions. Like, I'm not trying to, like, nullify that at all. Sure. But the world's not going to end if you make the wrong job decision. Like, a door was open for a reason.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: I'm not saying go through the first door that opens. Don't hear that either. But, like, a door's open. There's a reason for it.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: There's contentedness there. Then go through it with confidence.
Robert Carnes: I had a breakfast with my mentor last week, actually, right before the meetup and was talking to her about a lot of the same stuff. And she's 60, and she's having some difficult things. She's trying to figure out what the end of her career looks like, which was also tough. And I was like, hard to hear some of the stuff she's going through. But she was also like, look, you're in your 30s. Like, you can't mess up your career. She was like, if you go off and, like, do something else, it's like, briefly. She's like, you can. You can course correct. You got a lot of time. You got years ahead of you. You're not going to screw this up. And I was, like, saying that out loud, and hearing that, I'm like, yeah, obviously that makes sense. But it also, like, that was good to hear, especially from somebody who's been through a lot of those things and has made a lot of different career decisions. Like, that was. That was helpful to be like, oh, yeah, that's true. Like, I'm not gonna. Like, the worst thing I'm gonna do is leave somewhere after a little while, which I don't. I want to be able to land somewhere that I'm going to stay long term. And I think that's one of the things that's holding me up. Can I be for the next five years, 10 years? But, like, if. If I don't land there, that's okay, too. Like, I can make a change. And the worst thing I've done in the meantime is learned stuff and made money.
Chris LaFay: So nobody cares about you, meaning.
Robert Carnes: Thanks, man.
Chris LaFay: Like, somebody. Somebody told me that in, like, the. The context was like, sure. People are reading resumes and all this jazz. Like, I was. I was talking to her about, like, how to position the business on a particular product. And, like, she's like, just do it. Just pick it. You could go and change your entire company around tomorrow. And, you know, who's gonna care, though? Maybe, like, three clients that you like, and that's it. Nobody cares. Just go do the thing and try the thing. No, nobody. Nobody is. This is a better way to phrase what she said, but, like, nobody is thinking about you as hard as you're thinking about yourself. No, that sums that thought up better than nobody cares about you, but slightly kinder. Yeah, but that was like, the sledgehammer of, like, you're I could literally, I could send out a marketing email and 50 people read it. And if it had. If it was wrong, nobody's gonna be like, chris sucks. Like, nobody's gonna look at a resume and be like, you were here for seven years in this one for one year. What's up? You learn something? Yeah. Anyway, for sure. I digress.
Robert Carnes: That's okay. This is helpful. It's good to get some of it out, say it out loud, the stuff that's going on in here. So. Yeah. But I appreciate the connection to Mark. Look forward to connecting with him at some point soon maybe that gives me again. I'm trying not to overwhelm myself with options because I feel like I'm already kind of there, but I think also feeling like I've done my due diligence. So wherever I do say yes to, I want to feel like, cool. Well, I considered these are the things, and you'll never be exhaustive, but, like, cool. I did. I did enough where I can feel contented and not be like, well, was there something else that was out there? I'm sure there always is, so.
Chris LaFay: Yeah.
Robert Carnes: Yeah.
Chris LaFay: The joys, man. The joys. Well, I'm gonna go grab some lunch. I just realized we are over time, so hopefully I didn't keep you from anything super important.
Robert Carnes: Lunch. That's it. Yeah. Go heat up some food in the microwave and then appreciate the honesty and the ability to just share stuff.
Chris LaFay: Of course. I'm always here, man. If you have any questions or have any other thoughts you want to bounce off, just call me.
Robert Carnes: Sounds good. Appreciate it, Chris.
Chris LaFay: Catch you later, man.
Robert Carnes: Have a good day.
Chris LaFay: Bye.